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AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie

USA
740 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 01:15:28

Jesus Joshua 24:15 Newsletter - September 2007

The Band:
Bobby Shepherd: Drums
Steve Pettit: Lead Vocals
Jay Woody: Bass
Will Rauser: Guitars

The Crew:
Mark Bussell: Webmaster, Computer Tech
Jim Bishop: Promotion, PR
Tammy Woody: Video Production, Wardrobe
Juli Rauser: Booking
George Sparks: Roadie

Editor's Lead

Only the "Perfect"should be Perfect

Hi, there! Welcome to the September edition of the Jesus Joshua 24:15 Newsletter. I suppose that many of you are doing a double-take on the title of my editor's lead. Well, I do not blame you. I might be giving the impression that I think that there are perfect people in this world. Well, I certainly do not! I am trying to use an absurdity to illustrate a further absurdity.

I am sure that, by now, many of you have heard of the scandal involving a Republican senator, by the name of Larry Craig. The details are kind of unsettling, and rather adult, so I will merely restate the overall picture.

Senator Craig was caught committing lewd acts in a public restroom. Although he denies it, the evidence against him is overwhelming, and this is not his first time dealing with this issue and the law. What makes this situation of particular irony, Senator Craig has been highly outspoken in his outrage involving the militant homosexual agenda, and other moral and social issues. Personally, (and I am a staunch conservative Republican) Sen. Craig should leave public office.

I am not saying that because I agree with the homosexual agenda. I do not. I am not saying that because I disagree with moral outspokenness. I say the senator should resign because he violated several trusts, and he has broken the law. We should hold all members of public office to a standard, no matter what ideological or political side of the aisle one finds themselves. But Sen. Craig's disgusting behavior isn't really the point of my editorial.

What I have found both fascinating and alarming is the peripheral reactions of those who criticize the senator, particularly those in the public eye, and the news media. It seems that I hear nary a word from the homosexual community on Sen. Craig's behalf. I am not really surprised. But I find it ironic that were it a left-wing politician who got caught committing lewd acts in a public restroom excuses would abound, and defense would fly from the lips of homosexual activists. There would be no outrage against a left-wing politician, but there's nothing but indignation and outrage against a right-wing politician. I am not trying to make this a political rant, nor a partisan ideological statement. Like I stated above - Republican notwithstanding - Craig should be relieved of his duties. But here's the rub; those who hold to higher standards, and expect higher standards from their cohorts, will uphold those standards, even though that may mean holding to account those who play on the same team.

Let me switch this idea and apply it to the Church. As Christians, we are expected to hold and uphold moral standards. We believe that those standards are set up by God, are meant for our well-being, and are demanded of us as His representatives on this Earth. And, as we have often seen, some of our number have not practiced what they preached. And they are hypocrites, and Jesus seemed to have a special and particular indignation toward hypocrisy.

The irony of all of this unfolds as such: those who belong to the world always have a particular disdain for Christians, because we choose to live by God's standards. The world will ridicule, demean, marginalize, and persecute us for wanting to live to please God, even telling us that we're wasting our time.

They insist that what we want to do is impossible, and that we shouldn't live like that because it makes them feel guilty. They claim that "nobody's perfect", or (one of my favorites) "only Jesus was perfect."

Well, yes to both statements. Nobody outside of Jesus Christ has ever been perfect, or will be perfect in this life. But those statements are just a smokescreen to justify why those who belong to the world refuse to live by the Biblical standard. It seems okay for the non-Christian to live any old way he/she wishes, even being a hypocrite. But just let us Christians make a mistake. Just let a Christian make a poor judgment. Just let a Pastor fall from grace just once, and the world will never let us live it down. Hugh Hefner can sleep with as many women as he wishes, and he is praised, even worshiped. Let Rev. Jimmy Swaggart get caught watching a prostitute disrobe in a shady motel, and everyone in the world piles on the criticisms.

I make no excuses for Christians who behave badly. The truth is, we are supposed to live like we've been changed supernaturally. The truth is, we're being perfected, though we're not there yet. The truth is, we should be living, and exampling a higher standard. But, we're still human beings with flaws. Only, Christians don't seem to be allowed to have flaws. We do not claim to be perfect, but the world hears the message of the cross that way. So, even though those who belong to the world claim no standards, they sure do expect Christians to live by some. As a matter of fact, the standards the world insists upon Christians must be perfect, with no room for error.

Yes, we as Christians are to live by standards. I just find it hypocritical of the world (that has no standards for itself) to hold me to a standard that they neither accept nor understand. It is kind of like the Nazis demanding human rights at the Nurnberg War Crimes Tribunals. Sure, even war criminals have basic human rights. I just find it laughable that they would make a claim to those rights after the horrid human rights violations they imposed on millions of other human beings. It is kind of like someone who doesn't have children telling me how to raise my kids.

We Christians are not perfect. But in the eyes of the world, we are expected to be. Unless we live perfectly (which the world doesn't believe anyway), they will always have an excuse to live sinfully. And, ultimately, that's where the rubber meets the road. To the world, if we Christians are not perfect, it gives them license to live any old way they choose.

To the world, only the "perfect" should live perfectly. Everything else is fair game.

News and Events

As of this writing, all shows for the remainder of the year have been canceled. This does not mean that we are not open to any possible shows to be scheduled, this just means that the schedule is clear for the remainder of the year.

Let's give a big Happy 40th Birthday to guitarist Will Rauser, on September 4.

Also, Will's daughter will turn 8 years old on September 6th.

And, a special Birthday shout-out goes to subscriber, Mahaz, on September 3rd!

Question for the band

Recently, I asked some members of Jesus Joshua 24:15's vast audience to begin to send in some questions, that they would like to see answered by the band. I would like to see this become a regular feature in the Newsletter, so if you have any real questions for the band, post them on the website. Every question will be read, but not all of them will be answered. And not all of them will be answered by every member of the band. The answers will be posted in the newsletter following the date of the question.

At any rate, this question was recently posted was:

quote:
If each band member could pick a song from any of the JJ24:15 cds what would it be and why?

Bobby (Drums):That is a tough one for me, because each one reminds me of things I went through at the time they were written, but I'm gonna go with "Rise Up", because it's just a slammin' song that speaks of the finished work of Jesus and what he has done for all. I can really feel the power of God when I hear that song.

Will (Guitar): That's a tough question for me, because I like so many of the tunes. There's a few that I don't care for, but that's from a musical perspective, not a lyrical one. I guess my favorite song in our whole catalog is "You're Wrong." I like it for several reasons. One reason is that it is a hard-driving tune, and the lyrics really match the backdrop of the music.

Another reason is, well, there's no mistaking what the lyrics are about. Yet another reason is that was one of the first songs that Bob, Jay, and myself actually jammed on while putting it together. The music was written by Bob, but instead of penning the whole thing and then directing us how it went, he had us just start throwing out ideas while jamming. Then Bob began to piece it together as we jammed. We actually jammed to a drum loop, and the ideas just poured out. Consequently, it has one of my favorite recorded guitar solos.

Guitar Points from Will

Chordal colors

In my formative years as a guitar player, I began to notice that a lot of my heroes were not playing the standard block, "down-at-the-nut" guitar chords.

Yet, all of the basic instruction books and articles for beginners always addressed the basic open chords (chords that used open strings). In the examples below, you will understand what I mean.

Ex. 1a "Major Chords"


  
    C   A   G   E   D  

E|--0---0---3---0---2---|
B|--1---2---0---0---3---|
G|--0---2---0---1---2---|
D|--2---2---0---2---0---|
A|--3---0---2---2--(0)--|
E|--0-------3---0--(2)--|

(Notes in parentheses are part of the chord, but not always played, for reference only.)

Ex. 1b "Minor Chords"



   Cm  Am  Gm  Em  Dm

E|--3---0---3---0---1--|
B|--1---1---3---0---3--|
G|--0---2---0---0---2--|
D|--1---2---0---2---0--|
A|--3---0---x---2--(0)-|
E|---------(3)--0------|

Note:"x" means to not play or mute, choking off string from sounding.

Ex. 1c "Seventh Chords"



    C7  A7  G7  E7  D7

E|--0---0---1---0---2--|
B|--1---2---0---0---1--|
G|--3---0---0---1---2--|
D|--2---2---0---0---0--|
A|--3---0---2---2--(0)-|
E|----------3---0------|

Ex. 1d "Minor Seventh Chords"


    *       
   Cm7 Am7 Gm7 Em7 Dm7

E|-(3)--0---3---0---1---|
B|--1---1---3---0---1---|
G|--3---0---3---1---2---|
D|--1---2---0---0---0---|
A|--3---0---x---2--(0)--|
E|---------(3)--0-------|

(*Note: there are no open strings in this voicing, but the shape of this chord corresponds with the previous shapes, so I included it in the batch.)

First, before we go any further you may have noticed that I started all of my charts with various "C"-type chords, and progressing in the order of "C-A-G-E-D". I did this for a few reasons. One reason is that chord shapes lay out on the guitar in this order (a future lesson), and that it is a mnemonic device (meaning that it helps you to remember by using the word "CAGED").

Now, back to our topic. I started to notice that many of my heroes (Edward Van Halen, Warren DiMartini, Randy Rhoads, George Lynch...) were not using standard voicings for chords in their music. I would hear, and read in TAB books, that the chords they were using seemed to add color and "flavor" to their music in ways that standard voicings didn't give. One way to add "color" to chords is to use open strings that fit the key of the song, but not necessarily the chord itself. Let's look at some simple ways to enhance a boring chord, without a whole lot of technique or knowledge.

First, let's review last month's article on the harmonic structure of the key of "E Major".


I  iim  iiim IV V7  vim  viim7b5 (also called "Half-Diminished")
E, F#m, G#m, A, B7, C#m, D#m7b5

And let's also review the "E Major" scale itself:


1  2  3  4  5  6   7  1
E  F# G# A  B  C#  D# E

And let's also review the structure of the E Major chord:


1   3   5
E   G#  B

Now, let's create some fresh sounding chords by using the top two strings (the "B" string (2nd) and the high "E" string (1st):
Ex. 2


       	
    E    F#m7add4   G#mb6     Aadd9
    
E|--0--------0--------0--------0--|
B|--0--------0--------0--------0--|
G|--1--------2--------4--------6--|
D|--2--------4--------6--------7--|
A|--2--------4--------6--------7--|
E|--0--------2--------4--------5--|



   Bsus4   C#m7     D#m7b5b9

E|--0--------0--------0-------|
B|--0--------0--------0-------|
G|--8--------9--------11------|
D|--9--------11-------13------|
A|--9--------11-------12------|
E|--7--------9--------11------|

Some of those chords, though theoretically correct, may not sound so correct, so don't get bogged down in how it is supposed to be in theory, and let your ears be your guide. But, this is a clever device for adding other colors to your chord voicings. It is easy, but it sounds like you have mastered highly advanced chordal techniques. In a way, you have, but it really isn't that difficult to execute.

Now, let's take last month's "3 chord" writing technique, and add this concept to it. Let's just use the I-IV-V progression, in the key of E Major. That would yield the chords "E-A-B" or "EMaj7-AMaj7-B7".

Ex. 3a



   (I)     (IV)    (V)
    E      Aadd9   Badd4

E|--0---0---0---0---0---0---|
B|--0---0---0---0---0---0---|
G|--1-------2-------4-------|
D|--2-------2-------4-------|
A|--2-------0-------2-------|
E|--0-----------------------|

Ex.3b



  (I)    (IV)    (V)
   E5    Aadd9   Bsus4    

E|--0------0------0------------|
B|--0------0------0------------|
G|--9------6------8------------|
D|--9------7------9------------|
A|--7------7------9------------|
E|---------5------7------------|

Ex.3c



   (I)    (IV)   (V)
   E/G#   Aadd9  Badd4

E|--0------0------0--------|
B|--0------0------0--------|
G|--4------6------8--------|
D|--6------7------9--------|
A|-------------------------|
E|-------------------------|

Ex.3d


 Let's add different chords to the mix.

   (I)  (vim7)  (IV)    (V)
   EMaj6 C#m7   AMaj9   B7sus4

E|--0------0------0------0-----|
B|--0------0------0------0-----|
G|--6------6------6------8-----|
D|--6------6------6------6-----|
A|--7------4------0------x-----|
E|-----------------------7-----|

Ex.3e


 Let's arpeggiate (or play the chords "broken")

  EMaj6                 C#m7

E|---------0----------|----------0----------|
B|-------0---0--------|--------0---0--------|
G|-----6-------6------|------6-------6------|
D|---6-----------6----|----6-----------6----|
A|-7---------------7--|--4---------------4--|
E|--------------------|---------------------|



   AMaj9                B7sus4

E|----------0---------|----------0----------|
B|--------0---0-------|--------0---0--------|
G|------6-------6-----|------8-------8------|
D|----6-----------6---|----6-----------6----|
A|--0---------------0-|---------------------|
E|--------------------|--7---------------7--|

So now you can try adding spice to very common and boring chords. You may discover just how some of your heroes create the lush textures and snappy voicings on their recordings.

Lead Techniques from Will

Picking

Another very important technique to develop your lead playing is your picking. For most players, the picking hand is your right hand. But there are a few players in this world who pick left-handed. Because the most common way to pick is right-handed, I will refer to the picking hand as either the "Right-hand" or the "Pick-hand".

The reasons for good picking development is that your pick-hand is what actually generates the notes. The left hand frets the notes, but it is the pick-hand that actually stimulates the strings. And, I believe that real speed and accuracy comes from the picking hand. Truly, both hands have to be synchronized with each other to perform any piece well. But the actual musical momentum is generated by the pick-hand.

Proper picking results in better accuracy, and thus more speed. It also allows for dynamics to come through. Plus, it makes the notes you produce sound with conviction and power. Proper picking also allows your more energetic rhythm playing.

The first step is to get the flow of the pick against the strings. Example 1 shows just some simple open string exercises. There's not much that's musical about the exercise, but it does allow you to see how accuracy is important.

v=Down Stroke (toward the floor)
^=Up Stroke (toward the face)

Ex.1a (In 16ths---"1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a")


   v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^
E|-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-|
B|---------------------------------|
G|---------------------------------|
D|---------------------------------|
A|---------------------------------|
E|---------------------------------|

Ex.1b (In 16ths)


   
   v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^
              or
   ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v
              or
   v ^---| v ^---| v ^---| v ^---|
E|-0-------------------------------|
B|---0-----0-----------------------|
G|-----0-----0-----0---------------|
D|-------0-----0-----0-----0-------|
A|---------------0-----0-----0---0-|
E|-----------------------0-----0---|

Ex.1c (In 16ths)


   v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^
               or
   ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v
E|---------------------------------|
B|---------------------------------|
G|-------0-------0-------0-------0-|
D|-0-0-0---0-0-0---0-0-0---0-0-0---|
A|---------------------------------|
E|---------------------------------|

Ex.1d (In 16ths)


   v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^
               or
   ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v 
E|---------------------------------|
B|---------------------------------|
G|-----0-0-----0-0-----0-0-----0-0-|
D|-0-0-----0-0-----0-0-----0-0-----|
A|---------------------------------|
E|---------------------------------|

Ex.1e (In 16ths)


(Pick stokes as in the above examples)
E|---------------------------------|
B|---------------------------------|
G|---0-0-0---0-0-0---0-0-0---0-0-0-|
D|-0-------0-------0-------0-------|
A|---------------------------------|
E|---------------------------------|

The next set of exercises use sets of Three's, or "Triplets", using fretted notes.
(Triplet count="1-&-a-2-&-a-3-&-a-4-&-a")

Ex.2a



   v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^   v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^
                          or
   v ^ v--|v ^ v--|v ^ v----|v ^ v--|v ^ v--|v ^ v--|
E|-------------------------|-------1-2-3-4-3-2-------|
B|-------------------------|-1-2-3-------------4-3-2-|
G|-------------------1-2-3-|-------------------------|
D|-------------1-2-3-------|-------------------------|
A|-------1-2-3-------------|-------------------------|
E|-1-2-3-------------------|-------------------------|

And, lastly, the last exercise uses 16ths to coordinate both the Pick-hand and the Fret-hand.

Ex.3


   v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^   v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ 

E|---------------------------------|---------1-2-3-4-5-4-3-2---------|
B|---------------------------------|-1-2-3-4-----------------5-4-3-2-|
G|-------------------------1-2-3-4-|---------------------------------|
D|-----------------1-2-3-4---------|---------------------------------|
A|---------1-2-3-4-----------------|---------------------------------|
E|-1-2-3-4-------------------------|---------------------------------|

All examples should be practiced with a metronome and slowly.

These are meant to train the hands to work precisely together. Speed is not important here. Accuracy is. It is my theory that slower, more accurate picking gives the illusion of speed. Since our ultimate goal is to make the music sound good, then illusions are okay. But if the music sounds like one big blur, then your accuracy might be in question.

We'll begin working these techniques into the scale patterns we have already gone over. You will find that your hand responds better to the music when you've worked on your picking.

A Final Thought

My final thought is a desire to reflect on how many of us are so different. I am directing most of my comments to those who are regular subscribers and contributors to this newsletter. I assume that most of us claim to be Christians. That is certainly great. But, if many of you have been following the forums on the Jesus Joshua 24:15 website, you may find that some of us get into real deep subjects, and all of us have several distinct opinions on some of them. It may even appear, at times, that we are in disagreement with each other on various subject matter. While it is true that we may not all agree on certain things, disagreement is not the same as discord.

There is no anger, hard feelings, or ill-feelings toward anyone who wishes to post their opinions on a given subject. While I believe that we should be responsible for our words and subject matter, this forum has built into it a place where opinion, even divergent opinion, is welcome. We may not always agree with one another (Heck, my band mates don't always agree with me...), but we respect one another, and love one another. I invite, and encourage, dissenting opinions, in forums where that is offered. I am not offended if you think I am wrong on a subject. Just be prepared to give a rational and reasoned explanation for your position. Because while I respect opinions, I will be prepared to battle in the arena of ideas.

I will say this, however, there are definitely areas where we will not back off from; The first is, Jesus Christ is Lord, the second (which goes with the first) there is no other Name by which a man may be saved. Any other issue is subject to discussion and disagreement. But these two are not up for debate. We say what we believe. If we didn't believe it, we wouldn't bother letting the world know.

"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!"

Edited by - AXEMAN2415 on 03 Sep 2007 02:21:12

Shredhead
Junior Member

Australia
322 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 23:37:28

Happy birthday , one & all .

but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser

AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie

USA
740 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 02:23:58

Thanks, Shredders...

"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!"

herbhalstead
Starting Member

USA
26 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 11:40:56

Will,

Your opening article is certainly a true (at least in my opinion) description of the paradoxical hypocrisy that is "the world". To be honest I have not even thought about the subject in so long. At one time, it was a pivotal tool in my debate arsenal while I participated in many scientific, political, and religious debate forums. Reading about this double-standard reminded me of many heated public forum debates, and even got my blood boiling a little bit.

It has been over a year now since I left the debate scene to spend my time as a pastor, and at first I was a bit alarmed at myself for forgetting such a crucial stinging point. I think you are spot-on with your analysis, its is just that through reading it I only just now realized that I have not had to employ that tool at all in my role as a pastor - trying to make a difference in the lives of people - out in the trenches so to speak. I have no argument with your article (100% agree), I am just trying to get a handle on how such a crucial device has not had any use outside of those debate forums. Any insights?

Pastor Herb
www.made2thrive.com
herbhalstead.blogspot.com
www.leadnet.org

Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 20:52:48

Happy Birthday from the Capn' too...

Pastor Herb... Don't take this the wrong way... I think that the answer to your question is probably that the "trenches" on the inside (in the church) and the "trenches" on the outside (in the world) are a bit different. People who attack Christianity at it's core must be reminded of their own imperfection/hypocrisy (in an attempt to show them their need for a Savior) while Christians generally understand and accept this aspect of their flawed nature (Let God be true and every man a liar) to be at the root of their need for a Savior to begin with. Our recognition of our "need" is rooted in the honesty He requires of us to enable us to receive His grace. That honesty then becomes an automatic target and mechanism to create the persecution that we should expect and even welcome from the world. Since you are generally dealing with people that already understand their nature there is little need for drawing further attention to it unless they are in denial. If that makes sense.

President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub

Kirk Out

AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie

USA
740 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 22:07:36

I appreciate the Birthday sentiments, Captain! And I appreciate the positive feedback (from both Pastor Herb and the good Captain).

I do hope that everyone understands the angle from which I have approached the subject for this months Newsletter. I am not making a "knee-jerk" reaction to Senator Craig's arrest (not that I have been accused of that), but I am making an observation from years of studying how people react to such things. Invariably, the words "Christians" or "Religious people" pop up in conjunction with the words "judgementalism" "fanaticism" and "hypocrisy". I am continually amazed (although, as the good Captain points out, I probably shouldn't be) at the hypocrisy of those who think that "anything goes" stops at the feet of believers. It is supposed to stop at our feet, but because God says so, not because the world says so.

quote:
I have no argument with your article (100% agree), I am just trying to get a handle on how such a crucial device has not had any use outside of those debate forums. Any insights?

I only wish I had more insight into that. You probably have a better perspective than I, being a pastor. I think (just spitballin' here) that many Christians do not know how to approach this kind of paradox...because they are not being trained to handle it. For example, like Capt. Blasto pointed out, we as Christians should expect that the playing field is not level. While the world does what it does, we as followers of Jesus Christ must maintain a higher standard. Jesus tells us not to repay evil with good, to love our enemies, to be upright in all we do, even while the world continues to do what it does. That hardly seems fair...well,as all of our parents have taught us, life ain't fair. And Jesus warned us that we would still have trouble in this world.

But, I do think that we Christians can poke holes in the world's philosophies that even they can see are glaring omissions. Jesus made a regular practice of this as He dealt with the Pharisees, the Lawyers, and the Scholars. The Apostle Paul dealt with the secular philosophers of his time, and soundly beat them at their own game. But let us remember that Paul was well trained, even before he met Christ on the road to Damascus.

All of that is a long-winded way of saying that many of us Christians need to be better educated, not only in the Word of God, but also in our understanding of the philosophies that we must cope with. I find much of the education within certain circles to be sorely lacking in that. I think many of us spend our Sunday School time taking prayer requests and drinking coffee, rather than being equipped for service. That is an opinion, but one based in experience.

I once had an individual, at a previous place of employment, tell me that I couldn't do something (I don't remember what I did, but I do remember it wasn't anything of consequence) because, "Well, you're a Christian. I thought Christians didn't do---(whatever it was that I did)." I looked him right in the eye and said, "And how would you know? I thought that you didn't care what people did, everything was okay in your book. But you dare hold my feet to the fire? You don't even know what the Scripture says about(whatever it was), but you are going to tell me how to live according to it? What hypocrisy!"

You see, you have to know the truth in order for it to set you free. Otherwise, you're still a prisoner. A prisoner cannot tell a free person how to live free. A prisoner may know what freedom is, but he cannot live it.

I am sure none of that is helpful insight, but I thought it would help the conversation...lol!

"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!"

Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 22:43:31

In addition I would add that meeting people's needs is usually the best way to win the right to speak into their lives while debate forums are generally designed and approached by all as just that... debate and contention. You can catch more flies with the jelly stains on my shirt than with my smelly sneakers ? Well maybe not... attractiveness is in the olfaction of the olfactor! Or somthing like that... Some people see compassion as weakness and even view outreach ministry as veiled attempts at manipulation too... so I guess it's all about perspective...

President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub

Kirk Out

Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 23:17:23

... I suppose that if any outreach ministry is approached as an attempt at harvesting when maybe it is merely an opportunity for sowing that then it can be "wrong minded". Sometimes we can be right and still be wrong. We get so busy trying to help God "save" folks that we can miss the mark. People respond to authenticity more often than to our self-righteous facades. But that is a natural process that cannot be manufactured it often takes time. Our human-ness can be an asset. Sometimes people can look at us and say... "if he can be saved then maybe there is still hope for me ! Recognition of our need for a Savior and acceptance of Him may have less to do with this life than the next in one way and yet it should deeply affect this life none-the-less... though ultimately not for our glory but His... All of our deeds intentionally or not working toward revealing our need for Him and/or His Glory revealed in and through our good works... 1Co:3:15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. ----- hopefully we will all have some things that remain.

President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub

Kirk Out

Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 23:24:27

Let me qualify that last post and scripture reference

quote:
hopefully we will all have some things (fruit) that remain.

as referring to Christians (those who have accepted Him) specifically.

President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub

Kirk Out

AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie

USA
740 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 14:02:43

quote:
the olfaction of the olfactor!

Captain, can I borrow that one? lol!

quote:
Sometimes we can be right and still be wrong. We get so busy trying to help God "save" folks that we can miss the mark. People respond to authenticity more often than to our self-righteous facades. But that is a natural process that cannot be manufactured it often takes time. Our human-ness can be an asset.

You know, Capt., that's an excellent point! I agree.

But, just so we don't lose our way here (again...lol!), that proves that many Christians make mistakes, errors in judgement, stupid decisions, and even willful sins. But the world, which always plays the "tolerance" card (a word I have come to despise), finds no tolerance for Christians that err. To the politically correct, Islam is a "misunderstood" religion, and only the radical elements of that faith are the one's who have hijacked (sorry for the pun) that religion, and so deserve our tolerance. But when Christians (or those who do evil in Christ's name)make bad moves, all Christians are to be villified.

To the politically correct, there is no moral component to sexual behavior, except when Christians stumble.

As far as I am concerned, the inmates are running the asylum....

"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!"

Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 00:55:37

quote:
As far as I am concerned, the inmates are running the asylum....

...so that's why homosexuality has become 'en vogue !

President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub

Kirk Out

Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 01:00:02

quote:
But the world, which always plays the "tolerance" card (a word I have come to despise), finds no tolerance for Christians that err.

I guess you could say "The apple doesn't fall far from my accuser!"

President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub

Kirk Out

herbhalstead
Starting Member

USA
26 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 02:30:22

I guess I need to clarify - since becoming a pastor, when I am dealing with the lost, I have yet to have a need to dig out that tool... typically, we love, then we find ourselves at some point in a position to be heard... I spent so much time in the debate scene "arguing" with non-Christians... now, I am still speaking with them, but I have yet to argue with any in my real-world ministry...

Back to that actual subject...

I think the lack of tolerance for Christians who err is exactly as it should be - whether or not it is a hypocritical act on their part. Our response to sin has absolutely zero dependence on someone else's sin. I know that Will is not suggesting the opposite, but I want to reinforce that their hypocrisy has no justifying affect on our acts of shame. Therefore I think their hypocrisy is irrelevant. If I claim to be a child of the Most High, then I accept the fact that I am His ambassador, and ought to be shamed when I make Him look poorly - and I ought to take hold of that shame, bearing the full-weight of it, to try to prevent it from being placed upon Him - and then I better be at His feet asking for mercy for giving someone ammunition with which to justify their hypocritical indignation. We are not responsible for their decisions, but we are responsible for the effects of ours.

Pet peeve - when Christians try to justify the historical atrocities performed in the name of God - there is no excuse - admit they were terrible mistakes, make no excuses - but insist on the courtesy of remembering that the perpetrators do not speak for the rest of Christianity.

Pastor Herb
www.made2thrive.com
herbhalstead.blogspot.com
www.leadnet.org

Edited by - herbhalstead on 05 Sep 2007 02:31:58

AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie

USA
740 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 13:25:28

quote:
think the lack of tolerance for Christians who err is exactly as it should be - whether or not it is a hypocritical act on their part. Our response to sin has absolutely zero dependence on someone else's sin. I know that Will is not suggesting the opposite, but I want to reinforce that their hypocrisy has no justifying affect on our acts of shame. Therefore I think their hypocrisy is irrelevant.

I fully agree with this. And that certainly should be the message to all believers. We must understand we do not just have standards, we have Christ's standards. I know there are thos out there who say we can never measure up to those standards. But it isn't whether we measure up, it is how and what standards God measures us. I think that is the distinction, but I digress.

I do think, though, when we are dealing with the lost, that it must be made clear that there is a distinction between those who make claims to God's name (and thus do things in His name), and those who actually are children of God. The word of God tells us that by their fruit we shall know them (those who are believers and those who are not). Where my, well, complaint begins, is not that we are to live by Christ's standards irregardless of the lost, but that we believers have to have a superior argument. If I have to deal with a non-believer, and all that goes with that, fine. That doesn't change who I am. But I just want non-believers to face the fact of their nonbelief with eyes wide open.

I once dealt with a guy that I was trying to minister to. He pulled me to the side and told me, flat out, that he didn't care about Jesus, because he liked to sin. He liked drinking, smoking, womanizing, looking at porn, getting high...you name it. Now, he thought that he offended me. But I told him that I found his honesty refreshing. I thought it was sad that he was willing to throw away his eternity, but at least he was honest.

I guess the message to the non-believer would be to stop making excuses, and face the fact that it isn't the Christian's fault (and, therefore, God's fault) that they feel convicted for their behaviors. It is their own consciences. Part of the irony is, when Christians do live in total surrender to the Lord Jesus Christ, and allow their lives to be ordered of God, the world will say it is impossible to live like that. And when a Christian makes an error, or even blatanly rebels, it only confirms what the world wants to believe.

Pastor Herb is right, we Christians are responsible for how we conduct ourselves, irregardless of how the world acts. But I just like pointing out the irony of the world's hypocrisy, if for nothing more than to let them see what they must intellectually face within themselves.It's the apologist in me...lol!

"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!"

Edited by - AXEMAN2415 on 05 Sep 2007 13:30:52

herbhalstead
Starting Member

USA
26 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 14:10:36

quote:
The word of God tells us that by their fruit we shall know them (those who are believers and those who are not).

Add to that "and by their love", and I 100% agree - again, another reason why their hypocrisy is really irrelevant. Look at is this way: when one wants to justify one's sin, it does not matter how irrational or hypocritical the justifying condition - one will choose to willingly ignore the truth, even so far as to legitimize one's own hypocrisy by knowingly mischaracterizing the sins of "Christianity".

Pastor Herb
www.made2thrive.com
herbhalstead.blogspot.com
www.leadnet.org

AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie

USA
740 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 21:43:52

quote:
Add to that "and by their love",

Ooops! Darn it, I knew I forgot something...lol!

quote:
again, another reason why their hypocrisy is really irrelevant.

As far as us believers answering to God, I totally agree. However, as shining the light of truth onto a lost world, we cannot convince the lost using the same arguments they use, nor can we convince them when we submit to their philosophical rules. Showing them their hypocrisy keeps them from assuming philosophical authority over us. How many believers are cast into personal doubt because they didn't understand thier own positions?

The other thing thing that I think worth mentioning, is the fact that while we belivers must face and take responsibility for our mistakes, errors, and bad behaviors, we cannot ever live those mishaps down. Further, many of us Christians have to be branded with other Christian's mistakes.I may have my own issues with God, and I am certainly not perfect, I didn't participate in the Crusades. I didn't own slaves.I haven't cheated on my wife.

If it sounds like I am being self-righteous, I am not. I am not indicating anything but that I am innocent of those charges (lol). I know I have stumbled, and am far from perfect. But I shouldn't have to bear the blame for another's indescretions.

I almost laugh when a nonbeliever hits me with "There are a lot of atrocities committed in the name of God/Religion/Church". Well, that's funny, because the worst evils in the world were committed by outright Atheists (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et al). But I have to hear how "evil" we Christians are from people who often claim that there is no good or evil? Irony, indeed.

BTW, Pastor Herb and I are not arguing with one another. We are only making conversation. Pretty good, eh?

"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!"

herbhalstead
Starting Member

USA
26 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 22:03:23

Having this conversation has yielded some extra "goodies" - I just remembered that you smell bad. :D j/k

btw - movie trivia - what movie is this line from: "dis wuz a berry goot conbersashun"

Pastor Herb
www.made2thrive.com
herbhalstead.blogspot.com
www.leadnet.org

Edited by - herbhalstead on 05 Sep 2007 22:04:36

Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 00:39:02

I guess I'm probably just spinnin' my wheels here but we are just as guilty as the rest of the world at pointing our fingers at those "bad Christians". We of all people should fully understand the idea that every opportunity that someone has to look at us with indignation is just as clearly an opportunity to point out to them that Jesus is a redeemer and they (like we) are in need of Him. This is the very quality about Him that fills the need in every human's life to be redeemed. After all isn't the "Good News" that we have a redeemer? We should not/can not glory in sin by any means but we also should not think so highly of ourselves to exclude ourselves from recognizing our own need for redemptive awareness on an ongoing basis. Our sin is ugly and it has a damaging affect on every aspect of our lives. Yet to His glory He can work ALL things to the good... Repentance and Sanctification are not instantaneous one-time events in a Christian's life but willful processes. Though our spirit man is made alive in the twinkling of an eye, our body, mind and emotions are on an often unwilling journey to learn obedience. What areas that covers are as individual as we are. We should not get too hung-up about what anyone else is doing Christian or not. They unwittingly provide opportunity for us to cite "stereotyping" (a politically incorrect social taboo) of all Christians by the world when they try to unfairly measure us by another man's actions. We should call those guilty Christ professing folks out in private on such matters that we are aware of etc. but only out of love. The world and sometimes our own flesh is only doing what the world does best...

President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub

Kirk Out

AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie

USA
740 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 12:45:39

quote:
The world and sometimes our own flesh is only doing what the world does best...

You mean, stink?...lol

"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!"

herbhalstead
Starting Member

USA
26 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 13:43:39

quote:
We should not/can not glory in sin by any means but we also should not think so highly of ourselves to exclude ourselves from recognizing our own need for redemptive awareness on an ongoing basis. ]/quote]

Amen, brother!

[quote]Repentance and Sanctification are not instantaneous one-time events in a Christian's life but willful processes

bites tongue.... not the right time or place...

Pastor Herb
www.made2thrive.com
herbhalstead.blogspot.com
www.leadnet.org

Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 17:27:12

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We should not/can not glory in sin by any means but we also should not think so highly of ourselves to exclude ourselves from recognizing our own need for redemptive awareness on an ongoing basis. ]/quote]

Amen, brother!

[quote]Repentance and Sanctification are not instantaneous one-time events in a Christian's life but willful processes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

bites tongue.... not the right time or place...

Now I'm curious.... ? I hope I have not said something wrong... Do you feel I mis-stated something?

President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub

Kirk Out

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