| Author | Topic |
Grime
Starting Member
USA
26 Posts |  Posted - 16 Jul 2007 : 01:28:48   
| Maybe it's my battle field theology, but I don't see this as that complicated. We are called to pray for, honor, and support the leaders appointed (even elected) over us. That is right up until those leaders become enemies of God. Those three Israeli guys, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, refused to "honor" the leader appointed over them and God spared their lives in that fiery oven.
When the Declaration of Independence was drafted, it cited 27 long standing Biblical violations made by the English leadership. Though the throne wasn't necessarily against God, it's not always been Biblical. The Colonies tried to address the issues through the legal and religious systems and were turned away with more and more restrictive and unjust regulations.
In the years before the Revolutionary War, many delegates were sent to appeal to Parliament, the throne, and the Anglican Church. The delegates were turned away. The unjust treatment of the colonies continued.
Christians are called to rise against injustice. God has always called his people, as a group, to rise up in defense of the helpless and against the unjust. It's one of the costs of following Him; sometimes He leads us into battle. The Colonies did what was right. They stood up to injustice.
And yes, this goes for our religious lives too. There are those within the religious ranks that promote injustice and all manner of other evils, who God calls us to oppose. Muslims follow unjust and evil practices. They are damned. They have to be opposed. Same goes for supposed Christian sects that follow "a different Jesus" than we do, like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.
Have you ever stood up against these folks? It results in violence. It's odd that we as Christians are told we have to be more tolerant, but every other religion out there can be just as intolerant as they please. Oh, and if you believe we are supposed to be tolerant of false teachings and bad theologies, you might need to read your Bible closer.
We are at war, physically, politically, and spiritually. It's Good verses Evil. Don't lie to yourself and believe we are to live lives of peace. Jesus came to "bring us a sword". If He doesn't mind breaking up a home over religious differences, then He certainly doesn't mind if a colony revolts in order to follow God closer, even if we haven't quite come around to a closer walk with Him as a nation.
But that's my two cents. |
If your dream is not worth your life, then you are dreaming too small. |  |
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Shredhead
Junior Member
Australia
322 Posts | Posted - 16 Jul 2007 : 06:51:25
| | Well said , & answered all my questions in one post , thanks . |
but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | |
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AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie
USA
740 Posts | Posted - 16 Jul 2007 : 09:49:06
| quote:
But that's my two cents.
But it was worth a million dollars..... |
"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" | |
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herbhalstead
Starting Member
USA
26 Posts | Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 23:27:17
| Personally, I think any time we rush to extremes we get just that - extremism. Sure the Bible says that Jesus came with a sword, but it also says that He is the Bringer of Peace (John 14:27). The fact is that God presents to us many paradoxical situations - of each Person of the Triune Godhead. Sometimes He is the God of Peace, sometimes He is the God of the Sword. Sometimes He is the God of Mercy, sometimes the God of Justice, sometimes the God of Destruction (kherem). He is both-and in many situations. The key is to allow the Holy Spirit to help us discern which approach is necessary for a given situation. This is not at all a situational-ethics statement. It is rather the reality of how God uses us in a fallen world that both makes sense and also makes no sense at all. Sometimes we are indeed called to stand fast and boldly go forth - other times we are called to wait. Neither approach is wrong until it becomes motivated by ones own gumption rather than that of the Holy Spirit (1 Samuel 13).
Respectfully submitted. |
Pastor Herb
www.made2thrive.com
herbhalstead.blogspot.com
www.leadnet.org |
Edited by - herbhalstead on 18 Jul 2007 23:28:39 | |
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Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 02:37:28  
| | Ultimately vengence belongs to the Lord. It is by His permissive will that we are covered when reacting to injustice. While Jesus came to bring/make peace between God and men He does plainly state that He did not come in His mortal form to bring His kingdom of peace among men. That is for a future date when He reigns on Earth in His Millenial Kingdom. When we are justified in defending injustice it is certainly only according to His grace and mercy. I understand as well that in colonial times there was a greater fear, awareness and understanding of God among men than exists today. |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
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AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie
USA
740 Posts | Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 16:44:15
| Allow me to say that all of the contributions thus far have been very enlightening and well thought out. But, while I agree with everyone (for the most part) I feel it necesary to steer the conversation back into the realm of which I originally intended. I don't mind rabbit-trails, but after 3 pages, perhaps a little refocus is in order. In my original article I wrote;
quote:
I believe that people are comfortable with tyranny. Whether it is the tyranny of a dictator, or the tyranny of sin, there comes a point in everyone's lives where we have to decide whether or not we are willing to live with tyranny. The people who want to keep the "mud pie" are simply comfortable with the mud pie. The mud pie is what they've always had, and they are afraid that they will either like the "real pie", or have to give up what they've always known. Thus, they are comfortable with the "tyranny" of the "mud pie." The mud pie has no nutritional value, it cannot satisfy, nor does it taste particularly good. It may even make you sick. But you're comfortable with it, and thus you won't give it up.
I used the political examples to help us visualize the problem that I see. If we could, I would like everyone's thoughts on the "comfort with tyranny" thesis. Bear in mind, I am not chastizing anyone for what they have said, especially since I have joined in the chorus. It has all been wonderful. However, I would like a little more analysis of the "comfort with tyranny" idea I tried to explore. |
"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" | |
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Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 17:49:07
| Umm... Tyranny is kind of a "subjective" concept... n'est pas? (pun intended)
Those who feel that they benefit from a tyrant's rule do not necessarily consider his rule to be tyranny. Tyrants always have those that agree with or "are comfortable with" their policies. Otherwise if everyone hated them (soldiers etc. included) they would not be in power for very long. So then it would seem that people who are empowered to throw off such chains who continue to choose not to... either enjoy the short term "percieved" gains of the tyrants rule for selfish pleasures sake, suffer from just plain laziness or unwillingness to strive for independence or they (in ignorance) fear their very independence itself from he who has no real power over them other than that which they allow. In any of these situations they will continue in their bondage. To the fool freedom could equate to doing whatever you please or whatever pleases you but wisdom dictates that in proper handling of freedom we understand it's scope while recognizing the long term implications of it's exercise as well as the necessity of it's equal distribution and therfore respectful limitations.
Whew... |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
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Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 18:09:47
| | Let me just add that it is most likely a lethal combination of all of the afore-mentioned enabling factors (self-gratification, noncommittal laziness and fear of the unknown) that result in people remaining in bondage. There is one other possibility... that they choose to submit for submissions' sake. I believe that war type situations in scripture have always implied that God was either with or allowed a power to prevail or caused them to be defeated as He saw fit. |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
|
herbhalstead
Starting Member
USA
26 Posts | Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 20:13:56
| Forgive my temporary diversion onto the rabbit trail, but there is a point needing to be expounded upon - one that I was alluding to, but failed to adequately bring to light - that there can be and often is a distinction between what Christ is/was called to do, and what we are called to do. Christ's words concerning His bringing of the sword, whether applied appropriately or not, is not necessarily Word for us. His mission to turn the religious world on its end, ought not to be unjustifiably extended to be license for us to exact political justice in the name of religion. Again, I refer to the Holy Spirit's leading.
Back to the subject of "sweet tyranny", human nature seems to follow Newton's plagiarized first law of motion - change, no matter how beneficial or necessary, is often viewed in the same ilk as chemo-treatments. |
Pastor Herb
www.made2thrive.com
herbhalstead.blogspot.com
www.leadnet.org | |
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AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie
USA
740 Posts | Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 22:41:08
| quote:
Let me just add that it is most likely a lethal combination of all of the afore-mentioned enabling factors (self-gratification, noncommittal laziness and fear of the unknown) that result in people remaining in bondage.
quote:
Back to the subject of "sweet tyranny", human nature seems to follow Newton's plagiarized first law of motion - change, no matter how beneficial or necessary, is often viewed in the same ilk as chemo-treatments.
This is where I was going. Change is almost always hard to accept, and being changed by having Christ formed in us is no different. This is one reasom why I think that it was no accident that Jesus referred to the process of salvation as being Born Again. The process of life itself is, in it's very nature, consistent and constant change. And these processes can be, at times, traumatic and/or drastic. I think that our walk with Christ can reflect these attributes as well. |
"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" | |
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AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie
USA
740 Posts | Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 22:44:16
| quote:
Forgive my temporary diversion onto the rabbit trail, but there is a point needing to be expounded upon
That's okay, keep 'em comin'. Sometimes the rabbit trails lead to some nice rabbits...lol! |
"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" | |
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Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 20 Jul 2007 : 02:20:51
| quote:
Thus, they are comfortable with the "tyranny" of the "mud pie." The mud pie has no nutritional value, it cannot satisfy, nor does it taste particularly good.
I think that as it pertains to "sin" at least part of this analogy may not "seem" to ring quite as true... in that sinfulness could be likened to an oreo cookie while righteousness to spinich... Sin can seem sweet to the palate but yet it "has no nutritional value", it cannot sustain or nourish and it is actually bad for you... |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
|
Shredhead
Junior Member
Australia
322 Posts | Posted - 20 Jul 2007 : 06:03:52
| quote:
Allow me to say that all of the contributions thus far have been very enlightening and well thought out. But, while I agree with everyone (for the most part) I feel it necesary to steer the conversation back into the realm of which I originally intended. I don't mind rabbit-trails, but after 3 pages, perhaps a little refocus is in order.
I'm comfortable with that lol .
quote:
Those who feel that they benefit from a tyrant's rule do not necessarily consider his rule to be tyranny.
I agree , before we can say that one is comfortable with tyranny , we would have to be certain one sees the tyranny . This is our fight , as I see it . Capn B likened sin & the tyranny thereof to an Oreo , I would go a little further & liken it to heroin , highly addictive , short term pleasure with long term consequences , & getting free of it , is often an incredible battle .
The worldy mind , like the world , seems to be fixed on the temporal , not the eternal . Lets not forget how the Israelites wanted to go back to Egypt .
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but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | |
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AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie
USA
740 Posts | Posted - 20 Jul 2007 : 20:28:17
| Well, I just have one real pressing question:
Is the "Honey Sweet Tyranny" or is it "Sweet Tyranny BBQ Sauce"? |
"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" | |
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Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 20 Jul 2007 : 23:24:59
| I didn't know that there were laws about motions involved in eating Fig Newtons... much less that they were plagerized... |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
|
Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 20 Jul 2007 : 23:26:14
| | There should be a coffee rinse rule though... |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
|
Shredhead
Junior Member
Australia
322 Posts | Posted - 21 Jul 2007 : 02:10:00
| quote:
That's okay, keep 'em comin'. Sometimes the rabbit trails lead to some nice rabbits...lol!
quote:
Is the "Honey Sweet Tyranny" or is it "Sweet Tyranny BBQ Sauce"?
I'll fire up the grill  |
but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | |
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AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie
USA
740 Posts | Posted - 21 Jul 2007 : 02:49:58
| quote:
I'll fire up the grill
And be sure to bring the "Honey Sweet Tyranny" 'roo sauce... |
"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" | |
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Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 22:56:45
| I hope we're not having heroin laced oreos for dessert!
I'm tryin' to quit those things.
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President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
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Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 23:00:53
| I been spendin' a whole 2 hours a week in rehab (church) and I still ain't makin no progress...
 sarcasm
intended |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
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