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| T O P I C R E V I E W | | Captain Blasto | Posted - 31 Mar 2007 : 07:23:13
Change in context?
Compare… and decide…
KJV
Ga:2:16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
NIV
16 know that a person is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
Faith in Jesus Christ sounds like something you have to do and that you can only do if you have been "granted" the selective gift of faith as some would put it...
Justification by the faith of Jesus Christ sounds like something that He has already done for you...
It's His faith all you have to do is recieve Him by doing the first (confession with the tongue) of many "faith-works" in this faith walk.
Faith without works is dead.
"Faith is Action, Based upon Belief, Sustained by Confidence in God's Word and His promise to perform it"
(KJV is closer to the original language)
and... Paul knew how to use prepositions...
His Faith is a gift alright... given for all
Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
Why would the translators change the context to put the onus "on us". (no pun intended)
| | 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) | | AnonJr | Posted - 05 Apr 2007 : 19:24:01
Now I never said it quite like that... | | AXEMAN2415 | Posted - 05 Apr 2007 : 17:14:23
quote:
Now, having said all that about text and translation, I think your conclusions are spot on. But you and Axeman said all that needs to be said about that.
And once I have said it, there's nothing left to be said...lol! | | AnonJr | Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 21:06:55
This highlights a couple of the problems with the KJV. The first being that it is not actually closer to the original language - it is the English translation of the Latin translation of the original Greek and Aramaic. Its hard enough to get the idioms etc. from one language to another, but to drag it through one more intermediary translation? Whew...
The NIV is better because the people who worked on the translation went back to the original sources. Having said that, some may take issue with it because it is not a "direct" translation... but that's a whole other topic for another time. 
Also, the English in the KJV is not quite the same English we speak today... the usage of prepositions and certain words has changed slightly (yet importantly) over time. Many of the words/phrazes/etc. are either not in use, or used differently.
Now, having said all that about text and translation, I think your conclusions are spot on.  But you and Axeman said all that needs to be said about that. | | AXEMAN2415 | Posted - 02 Apr 2007 : 19:25:59
quote:
The Holy Spirit draws us but we decide how we respond. Sorry if I'm beating on the same point. Just thought it was worthy of note. We should always cross-check our translations.
Yeah, I think you're essentially correct.It is worthy of note, especially within a reletavistic society where there are those who are purposely rewriting the Scriptures to suit thier fancies. I am not saying that what you have illustrated is such, but we should always scrutinize our sources for error and potential error. | | Captain Blasto | Posted - 02 Apr 2007 : 16:16:52
Yes... Well said...
I guess I was also just voicing a concern that translations can somtimes be misinterpreted. Whether intentional or not, changing "The faith of Jesus Christ" to read "faith in" Jesus Christ may cause a problem. The faith of Jesus Christ is a thing (a wonderful gift and example for all of mankind) while faith in Jesus Christ is an action. I wonder if some people would use this misinterpretation to support a concept of predestination that says that God only gives "the gift of faith" to a select group of people who are able then to apply it to the gospel when they hear it. Predestination means (as I understand it) That God foreknew us and therefore knowing the end from the begining knows how & where each of us will end up before we ever take our first breath. I don't believe that He controls every decision we make etc. or only gives faith to some when His will is clearly stated in the scriptures to be that He would that none should perish... I also understand that in the larger scope we have "faith in" "The faith of" Jesus Christ so in that sense the meaning is similar but precision in translation is important as I attempt to point out above. The "gift of faith" as I read it is Jesus' own faith exercised in an act of love for us believing with confidence to the point of sweating blood that The Father would raise Him up again. Our faith "gift" exists in the ability to choose to believe somthing or not that we all possess. The Holy Spirit draws us but we decide how we respond. Sorry if I'm beating on the same point. Just thought it was worthy of note. We should always cross-check our translations. | | AXEMAN2415 | Posted - 02 Apr 2007 : 10:43:07
quote:
All men have the potential to respond with action,
If I understand your thesis correctly, Captain, then I think this statement is the lynchpin of the entire passage. We all have the potential to respond in action (which is something we do) based upon the measure of faith given us (which is something we cannot do). The word potential is defined as something possible, or latent, not something that will occur, but can occur.
quote:
Apparently our "proportion of faith" may be directly affected by how often we exercise it.
I think this is probably accurate. It is like our muscles. All humans have been given a muscular system, that operates with essential similarity ( diseased persons notwithstanding).And that musculature is not something earned, but something given. Yet clearly, not all human beings have the same build, and many humans have weak muscles simply because they do not use them, and thus, over time, the muscles atrophy, and become useless. That is something we do.
So, without splitting proverbial hairs (as I am often inclined to do...lol), I think that these two statements are the hinge upon which the rest of the "door" turns.... | | Captain Blasto | Posted - 01 Apr 2007 : 02:51:35
Kinetic Faith ? All men have the potential to respond with action, based upon belief sustained by confidence in God's Word and His promise to perform it. | | Captain Blasto | Posted - 01 Apr 2007 : 02:35:55
I guess this isn't so much about anything being put "on us" as in we do it but rather it's about the doctrine of "individually dispensed" faith vs. the power and "all-inclusiveness" of His faith. Both of which appear to have weight as outlined in Romans Chapter 12. Exclusivity of a "gift of faith for some" may be in question as that passage in verse 3 says: "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. In either case we must respond with "our faith" and believe with confidence. Apparently our "proportion of faith" may be directly affected by how often we exercise it. Ultimately this is about accuracy in translation. |
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